Gold inlaying question

[ElectricBlue]

Thanks for that Leah, some nice stuff, but again it stops at the point I want to go beyond.

[Bluey Zarzoff]

Hey guys.

Never tried it but a thought bubble popped (might have been a brain f**t) up reading the thread.

What if you were to use a thin piece of gold leaf, melt it, another bit of leaf, etc , and build up the layers.

Thinking that using leaf, you would not need anywhere the heat.

Thats me.

[Lord_Thunda]

I have 2 books on "Indian Jewelry Making " by Oscar T. Branson that maybe will give you some ideas. It shows Navajo Indian designed jewellery & how to reproduce it. On one page it shows a strategy to repair broken stones by placing a bezel across it & solder it onto the outer bezel.

There is another section of lost wax casting of revolver handles inlaid with turquoise. Between each stone is the cast bezel. They really do look special. 

[pete]

I'm definately into making things ElectricBlue so I'll certainly take up the challenge. And anything I can help with I'm more than happy.
And your design sounds cool. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before your dream is fully realised. It's a lapidary's dream to have so many types of rocks for just about any project you dream, easily at hand.

[ElectricBlue]

Thanks for your input Bluey, but gold leafing doesn't work like that unfortuneately, and even if it did, do you have any idea of how many layers you'd need to put down to build up the 1mm inlay thickness I'm talking about?
Just take my word for it, it's bloody heaps and you'd end up with a greater thickness of gilding siez than you would the gold itself lol.
The other thing is that if you melted one layer of gold leaf in, and then tried to do a second layer, the first one would melt back out again, totally defeating the exercise.

The other factor to take into account for me with gold leaf is that I would have to go out and buy the stuff, whereas I have a decent stock of gold on hand that cost me next to nothing, so you can work out which way I want to go without straining any brain cells lol.

Hey mate, is that foul smell around here that brain fart of yours or did you let something else go with the strain  

[ElectricBlue]

Sounds interesting LT. Where does one get a copy of these books?

I've made loads of casts from wax master items over my modelmakinging years, so I'm pretty offay with the process now.
In fact I would create the Jesus figure for my intended crucifix project that way to cast it in gold so I can include the 'fixing pins' into it to hold it onto the cross later.

My hobby for many years was in building scaled down working steam engines to go into my river paddle boats like the ones you see on the Murray and Mississipi. I had to make all the parts by casting them myself because I couldn't buy them.

[ElectricBlue]

The heat source for the sort of kiln I'm talking about is just a general purpose propane gun that you can use with a regular LPG bottle Pete.
There's someone in Pommieland selling them on Ebay for Aus$25 plus $8 postage right now. I know because I just bought myself a second one from them ready to become my extra heat source for when I build my bigger furance/kiln.
You'd pay around 4 times that much for one of those guns here in Oz, so you might wanna get in there and grab one for yourself right now.
You'll find it in the tools section and the seller's ID is 'pcarena-bristol'.
Also while you're on Ebay you should go into the Consumer Electronics area where you can find another Ebay seller in Septictankland selling digital kiln thermometers with the probes for US$50, plus $25 postage because that's the other main item you'll need if you intend to build a small furnace kiln like mine. The seller's Ebay ID is 'rogersdini'.
I hope I'm not accidently breaking any ALF rules here by giving you this info openly as I am. If so I apologise to all concerned for my error.
You'll need a regulator and hose to go on it but they are easily available locally when the time comes, and you can always go pinch one off the gas barbie of someone you don't like if ya wanna save a dollar lol. You may as well nick their full bottle of LPG while you're at it for good measure as you'll need that as your fuel for the propane gun later   Just make sure it's not mine if you wanna stay healthy 
You'll also need to go find yourself an old 9Kg LPG bottle from somewhere because that becomes the outer casing of the kiln/furance. If push comes to shove you could always buy yourself a brand new bottle, and it saves you the worry of cutting into an old bottle, but when you fill them with either water or sand first there's no danger of explosions.

Let me know when you've got those bits and we'll move forward with your own protable propane powered mini kiln/smelting furnace.
Even if you never work in gold inlay as I am intending the same furnace/kiln will do just as good for working in Pewter, Bronze etc, also Glass.

By doing some calculations on alloy mixes I can get the MP of the gold down to around 1000C up to now by creating a simple bronze mix to go with it, that's just copper and tin, but that's only MP, not actual liquification temps, but still playing with figures here.
I don't want to drop below the 14 carat gold level, that's 50% and worth around the Aus$900 per ounce mark an once at today's gold spot price.
My first project for the crucifix would take around 9-10 oz at the size I want to build it at.
I know who would buy such a thing from me without batting an eyelid at the price I'd be asking for it if I can pull it off well.

Gold MP is 1066C, but liquification is more like 1180C.
Bronze MP is 950C, but liquifaction is still around the 1080C mark, but I can bring it down a bit more by using what is known as 'Gold alloy' as they use in the goldsmithing game.

To test what happens to different stone I built myself an underground oven for safety after I nearly got myself shot by a piece of stone that exploded out in the open one day.
I use the propane gun as the heat source for that but the dirt walls are thick enough to stop any bits of red hot flying rock flying around in the open.
I kinda like my head right where it is, so I learned pretty damned fast lol.

[Lord_Thunda]

If ya google it theres a few copies on Amazon. I bought my 2 volumes on ebay ages ago. I wanted to know how to make "authentic" indian relics. 

[ElectricBlue]

I took a bit better look at those kiln thermometers for sale on Ebay Pete, and note they only go up to 1999F, but that's still over the MP of gold so they'd do the job OK.

I'm taking off from here on Friday for about a week or so as I have to fly up to PNG to carry out a bit of work there under a contract I'm still bound by, but if you need to know anything about bits and pieces for your proposed kiln build just stick it in here and I'll get to it when I get back.

Just one minor thing is that you don't HAVE to use an old gas bottle for your outer casing, a 20ltr oil drum would do the job just as well if that's easier for you to lay hands on.
It's just that the gas bottles are thicker walled so it makes the bits and pieces of welding jobs easier to do on them.

When I get around to building my bigger kiln I'll be using a thick walled 44 gall drum for it so I have the length I'll need in it as the kiln, but can also build a full sized crucible smelting furnace into the top of it too. Possibly even a double crucible job.
I'll be using two burners in that just to make it faster to reach the operating temps, not because it must have two.

[pete]

The Ebayer who does the propane torches doesn't post to Aus, at least for me, but that's OK coz I already have one. I'll look around for a suitable container and have a think about the pyrometer, maybe I can find one locally.
Enjoy PNG

[ElectricBlue]

The Ebayer who does the propane torches doesn't post to Aus, at least for me, but that's OK coz I already have one. I'll look around for a suitable container and have a think about the pyrometer, maybe I can find one locally.
Enjoy PNG

  Now that's downright weird because the ad states they post worldwide. They are showing they have posted mine out to me already, so I wonder what the game is.

Doesn't matter anyway if you already have one as that's a few dollars you won't need to fork out.

The one thing I led you a bit astray on was with the gas regulator Pete.
A LPG regulator from a standard barbie won't work because they are set at 10psi, so don't permit enough gas out to reach the temps required. You need to use an adjustable one.
Mine came from the USA and is adjustable up to 40psi. I think it cost me around $15.00 at the time but have no idea of the prices now.

I'll leave you to go hunting for your other things while I'm away.

I certainly won't be going to enjoy PNG, just in there, do my thing, and get back out of the area asap, because it's one of those high risk areas, but I can't get out of my contract obligations. Africa can be just as bad these days so I don't enjoy going over there like I used to, but again, I still have consultancy contractual obligations there too.
Just two more years and I can fully retire in peace and quite to play with rocks and gold lol.

[chookie2]

I know it can be done Hunter, because it has been done by the Aztecs.

Steve
They probably would have beaten the gold into the crevice I would think don't you ? Is that an option for you,  if you are using pure gold it would surely be soft enough?

There is a HongKong seller selling  pyrometers on ebay - not sure of the quality but any kiln supplier sells them too.  In Australia there is Ward Kilns,Woodrow, and Tetlow Kilns plus GE & Ge Kilns - easily googled. And this is a new one to me  http://www.kilnwest.com.au/
 Most kiln supplies you need can be also purchased at a pottery supplier here is Oz.

I brought my small gas gun at Bunnings plus this one ( a Rolls Royce in gas guns that uses LP and Oxygen in two feeds for extra heat.) US make brought through Tassie Glass Supplier.

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[ElectricBlue]

I know it can be done Hunter, because it has been done by the Aztecs.

Steve
They probably would have beaten the gold into the crevice I would think don't you ? Is that an option for you,  if you are using pure gold it would surely be soft enough?

There is a HongKong seller selling  pyrometers on ebay - not sure of the quality but any kiln supplier sells them too.  In Australia there is Ward Kilns,Woodrow, and Tetlow Kilns plus GE & Ge Kilns - easily googled. And this is a new one to me  http://www.kilnwest.com.au/
 Most kiln supplies you need can be also purchased at a pottery supplier here is Oz.

I brought my small gas gun at Bunnings plus this one ( a Rolls Royce in gas guns that uses LP and Oxygen in two feeds for extra heat.) US make brought through Tassie Glass Supplier.

Thanks for the info Chookie, that may help anyone else who's interested in this thread with a view to building their own kiln.

According to what was written about the way the Aztecs did things there is evidence that the gold they used was heated into the carvings etc.
That's why I've been following that line of thought.
Beating the gold into things is worth a look at though but anchoring it there so it remains in place could be the issue.

I'll admit that I got to the stage where I was looking at cheating by fixing the metal to the stone using epoxy. That was why I asked what other people were using to bond metal to stone in the other thread, but I put the idea aside because if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it right. Even if it kills me in the process lol.

[ElectricBlue]

YAHOOOO! I think I've got it! I've discovered the key, and it's quite literally a key of sorts as well if my guess is right.

I won't go shooting my big mouth off right now because I need to do a couple of trials first, and I won't have the chance to do that before I head off to PNG, but when I get back it'll be my number one project, and if I'm right I'll soon be shouting about it loud and clear lol.

It may not be the way the Aztecs did things, but it has to be somewhere close to it I believe.

The thing that's been bothering me all the way along is that the Aztecs never attempted to cut the gold purity down because they worshipped the metal, it was God to them.
That meant I was on the wrong track altogether by trying to bring down the melting point by cutting the purity down by using other metals, but this way I wouldn't have to, and believe it or not Chookie, you had part of the answer, so consider yourself hugged and kissed in a brotherly way big time  

Heat doesn't come into things as much as I first thought, but it still does to a more minor extent.

[pete]

Beating the gold into things is worth a look at though but anchoring it there so it remains in place could be the issue.

Hence my initial post where I said the side walls of the groove where the precious metal will be inlaid are undercut and the the floor is keyed on larger areas. This is the technique for inlaying metal in metal, which from memory was used by the Indians.
Basically the base of the groove is cut wider than at the top so that when the metal is pressed and burnished the metal spreads slightly wider at the bottom and is  held in place by mechanical means rather than glue.
Gold is inlaid into other metals using this method and is the way I have in mind for when I try inlaying.
The difficulty of course is in the precision cutting of the groove in stone which is much harder than metal. I would expect a lot of trial and error to get the technique down and more than likely there is a limit to how fine the inlay could reasonably be.