Aussie Lapidary Forum
LAPIDARY => Gemstone Faceting => Topic started by: Faceting Frank on February 17, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
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Finished cutting two of the total of six stones in this year’s OZ comp as well as other stones. It’s tough going for my right eye through the 10x loupe with the comp stones, meet point after meet point. I like to cut for an average of three hours a day and at 71 I’m finding that’s getting to long.
So, I decided to buy one of those spectacle type things with the two lenses, so I could share the load with both eyes. It came with four sets of lenses from 10x to 25x.
Something I never thought of at the time of purchase is you can’t see through both lenses, not like an Optivisor where the magnification is weak and the focal length is about 150mm. The focal length of a 10x loupe is about 25mm, so you’re looking through one lens or the other.
Something else I discovered was you can’t use your left eye if you’re right-handed. Nothing seemed to work, couldn’t find the stone through the lens, the lighting seemed to be out, I was all awkward.
So, it’s back to the drawing board.
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Anyone used one of these for faceting?
https://okzoomerhd.com/collections/frontpage/products/ok-zoomer-hd-microscope-camera-for-android-and-iphone?fbclid=IwAR1Src8Vd5c-00GOp3DsBNhIdgM-Rsduo27g-7vapBN0AxAX74lrxmMXAN8
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No but interested!
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I feel your pain, hand lens all day stuffs my eyes. I'm just using a 2.75x optivisor, genuine lens are heaps better than chineses one.Cameras, somewhere on the web a bloke is selling lens to fit to I think they might be microsoft hd webcams. They are using them for soldering. So there is really good focal length and magnification. I bought a webcam but that was as far as I got with it.Google 1080p soldering microscopes, but you'll also need a decent computer to run the 1080p video.I lot of usb microscopes are rubbish but there are good ones out there if you research.
Just had a look, there are links in the description of this youtube clip, they are using a hacked Microsoft Lifecam, they are a fairly good camera. https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=HIWUFFlr2I4
MB
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Hi MakkyBrown thanks for the link. The link on microscopic cameras I put on here is from the US faceters guild Facebook page. It looks really good and the images they are showing very impressive, but I see the guy on your vid described them as rubbish, I will go along with that. I did try blue tacking a 10x loupe to a mobile phone camera, that worked really well as far as viewing things magnified was concerned. But the wide-angle lens on the phone (minus magnification) cancelled out most of the 10x and it was probably only 3x, useless for looking at meet points.
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I was looking at cameras to check the polish aswell as the meets. I will be very interested to see how you go.
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I've been using a digital microscope from jaycar for about 3 months. ($99.00)
It's very handy, particularly for cutting the girdle.
The internal light is useful for a second light source.
Plus it's great for taking photos.
I've got it mounted on an old flexible reading light frame that i repurposed.
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I’ve looked at some of the posts on YouTube regarding the digital microscope I posted a link to on my second post here. The main criticism seems to be the quality of the picture and not the magnification. I don’t have much of a problem with the polish, it’s the intensity of focus needed to get the meets right.
So, I’ve bought one of these contraptions, expect it Monday and will make some bracket up on the machine mast to fit it on and connect it to my laptop. Will let you all know how it works when I’ve finished it.
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Be interesting to see what you have come up with Frank
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Got the Digital microscope working on my laptop after a mammoth effort to get it to work on windows 10. Will get it setup on the top of the mast and figure out how to take and post some pics.
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Hi Frank, did you get the same one, that you posted the link on?
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Hi Prooz, yes I did. Had a play around with it looking at a transparent card that came with it. Had a grid on it with 0.1mm squares, lines of 0.03mm and circles down to 100um. No idea what a um was, but it sure was small. These things are useless for anything other than looking at meet points and then only at its weakest magnifications. But I just want to be able to look at a computer screen and see them clearly with both eyes.
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Had a grid on it with 0.1mm squares, lines of 0.03mm and circles down to 100um. No idea what a um was, but it sure was small.
um (or actually SI symbol: μm) is micron. And yes - it is very small.
1 micron is 0.001 mm.
cheers
Leah
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Hi Prooz, yes I did. Had a play around with it looking at a transparent card that came with it. Had a grid on it with 0.1mm squares, lines of 0.03mm and circles down to 100um. No idea what a um was, but it sure was small. These things are useless for anything other than looking at meet points and then only at its weakest magnifications. But I just want to be able to look at a computer screen and see them clearly with both eyes.
Would it be any good at taking a photo of the gem stone?
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No it won’t be any good for taking pictures of whole stones.
This a photo of my laptop, with the view of the top of the stone looking with the scope. This is the same stone in the other picture. The colours are washed out but that’s not a problem, it’s a view of the meet points is what I’m after.(http://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-051019154257.jpeg) (http://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9110)(http://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-050321163458.jpeg) (http://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9361)
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Made up a makeshift jig for my digital microscope, to see if I could cut a few rows of facets, just using the computer screen to look at the stone. The object being to see if I could get all the meets right to such an accuracy that when looking through the 10x loupe they looked spot on.
That worked ok though it took three times as long to cut the stone and the facets were simple rectangular step cuts. Also, it was none reflective 1200 grit, the built-in light won’t work on polished or semi polished facets.
But it looks as though it’s going to be worth setting up some means of fitting it to my faceting machine. The picture of the steel ruler showing the 1mm increments is at its closest setting. I want to be 15mm from the stone surface, at that distance there would be 5mm across the screen and the focal range would be about 1.5mm deep. So, I’m going to have to have some accurate means of fine adjustment, to keep the scope exactly 90deg to the facet.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-110321133545.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9371)
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-110321133740.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9372)
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Looking good frank. I don't think I'll worry about getting my meets that accurate just yet, but may have a go at comp stones one day.
With the scope connected to a smart phone, would it be a quick and easy way of taking a good photo of the stone? You said it wouldn't be but now you have had a good play, what do you think?
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No, it won’t be any good at taking photos of whole stones Prooz. The colours are all washed out and the overall quality of the picture isn’t up to much.
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Hi Prooz
A microscope has too shallow a depth of field to be any good for taking photos of stones. Only part of the stone will be in focus
If you use a camera you can get a decent depth of field using f22.
Depth of field is a CC measure of how much depth from the point of focus the subject is reasonably focussed
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Thank you FlashGP, appreciate any help. I have to get back to playing with the camera, for stone shots.
Cheers
Prooz
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This is still work in progress.
Butchered up a flexible table lamp stand, but its not working. To rigid and has a "memory", that is it wants to slowly go back a bit over a short time.
So buying one of those flexible mobile phone stands and see how that goes.
This is not going to get me past the 1200 stage as its no use when there is any polish, but hoping it will reduce a lot of 10x eye work.
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Hi Frank, my eyes are getting a hard time atm so looking for a solution. Found this
https://kano.me/row/store/products/webcam
55mm focus distance, 1080p and has a light, flex arm. Ticking a lot of boxes, back to looking. I am looking for macro webcams. fps might be low can't see mention of that.
MB
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Hi Makky, looks good but it’s not saying much about itself.
If you search “portable digital microscope” on YouTube nearly all the vids that come up are about the one I’ve bought. The problem I have to solve with it is to have it attached to something that is both easy to move and stay still when put in position. The table lamp stand I tried was way too stiff.
The flexible mobile phone stand looks good, so hoping it’s going to do the job.
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Phone stand came in the mail Friday and have got the basics of it setup. Fitted it to the mast base so it moved along with the mast.
The rest position of the quill when looking at the stone is always in the same place, the only thing that changes is the quill is higher up the mast as the angle changes. So only have to alter the height and angle of the scope to suit.
The only problem with the phone stand is it takes a bit of time to get it in the right position to suit those row of facets being cut. Also, it wobbles from side to side when touched and takes a few seconds to settle down. So, going to fix the upright part of the stand to something ridged, so only the top bent bit flexes.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-280321173541.jpeg)[/url (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9383)
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My computer just crashed when replying. So this is the short version.
-good point mounting so it changes height when you raise/lower the faceting head.
-can I grab the link to the camera you got again I want to have a look.
-that photo you posted earlier showing the crown you were cutting is not bad.
-Your using it at the lowest magnification ?
-What is the distance(roughly) between stone and camera?
-maybe that small camera I found might work but concerned it doesn't have enough magnification.
-bigger the monitor you use the better.
MB
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The link to this scope is on my second post.
The computer screen is 350mm wide and putting a ruler across the stone at my current distance of 25mm from the end of the scope puts 7mm on the screen. So that would make it 50 to 1. It is capable of greater magnification by getting closer, but it’s not practical. I will probably get further away from the stone because the focal length will increase. It’s very fiddly getting it in focus at 25mm.
I know I have a lot more to do with this to make it quick and efficient to set from one row of facets to the next, but for the moment will cut 18 triangular facets on the crown of this stone. It already has a faceted girdle and table and have cut the facets without bothering on meet points.
The plan being to cut all the facets at the 1200 stage and having to use the cheater and mast height adjustment to get 10x loupe standard meet points on every facet without using the loupe.
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Thanks found it. Has 40x minimum. What is the furthest away from the stone you can focus on it ? Further away should hopefully improved the DOF.I have seen some microscopes that go as low as 10x, do you think it would be better having 10x as the the minimum, perhaps a range of 10-50x ?
MB
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Just been having a look at Aliexpress, this seller has some interesting cameras.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/video-microscope/2345154_513741182/2.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148361.1.5df31ae9HvKqYV&origin=n&SortType=orders_desc&g=y
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Looked at those types of scopes Makky, but they all seem to have rigid sort of stands, don’t know how to fit it to the faceting machine. Haven’t tried to get any further away than about 40mm, the purpose being to get the meet points right.
This stone is a 12-sided cubic zirconia that I had already cut and polished the crown and girdle. I added 18 facets to it and finished cutting them with 1200 grit just using the computer screen to work with. The scope is 25mm from the stone and the stone is 11mm dia.
It’s very fiddly to work with the way I have it setup. Can’t turn the motor up very high as it makes the scope vibrate. Focusing is a pain because touching the scope makes it move. But overall, I like it and will make another setup on my machine that makes it easier to use.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-290321155926.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9384)
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I was thinking a fixed mount bolted to the faceting head assembly. Those aliexpress cameras look good and some would probably be good enough for gem photos. Most of the mounts have height adjustment, the mounts using chrome rods look pretty good but postage is too expressive on them, cheaper to make. Watching your progress with interest Frank.
MB
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Haven’t tried to get any further away than about 40mm, the purpose being to get the meet points right.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-290321155926.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9384)
It sure looks like it works well for you Frank, those meet points look spot on!
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I am quite impressed with the quality of the video images - looking to be a workable alternative to squinting into a loupe.
RC
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Cut all the facets to 3k pre-polish on a BATT lap and polished one facet at 60k.
Because the cutting speed on a BATT lap gradually diminishes until you reach the point where it needs recharging. I cut the facets by wiping them across the lap five times as it rotates and then move onto the next facet in that row. Going round and round the stone till they are all finished, if one needs cutting more, they all get cut more. That way they are all cut to the same depth and when the pre-polish stage is finished the meet points are pretty good and just need a bit of tiding up.
In the first picture facets C are still 1200, facets A are finished on 3k and went round the stone four times for that. Facet B is only half finished and still full of 1200 grit pits, but you can’t see them on the screen. So, the only way I can think of cutting the pre-polish is to cut the mains (biggest facets) a bit more than required, then cut the rest to their meet points.
That way you’re only using the 10x loupe on the mains.
The second picture has the centre facet polished, the rest still 3k pre-polish. I polished it only using the screen to spot areas not finished. The lighting position was the key to getting that to work, so it could pick out the 3k scratches.
My conclusion is that it can turn out a stone that would look perfect through a number 5 lens Optivisor, just using the computer screen to work with. But will need a 10x loupe at the polish stage to finish the meet points and polish off if you want that standard of finish.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-300321164304.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9386)
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-300321164433.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9387)
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LOL, my comments are in your gallery. Again...DANG!
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Those pics look good enough for me Frank, might have to buy one now :)ThanksMB
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Scrapped the mobile phone stand idea, even having a ridged upright section it still wobbled when you touched it. So, went back to the wooden upright and boom idea.
I have a magnetic protractor to put on the boom, that angle will always be the same relevant to the facet angle and the distance the boom is out will be as well. Only the height the scope is above the stone will need to be manually set to suit.
So will make a chart up of the angles etc. so I can quickly setup from one row of facets to the next.
I only have one fine adjustment next to the scope at the moment, which is in the Y axis. Need to have one in the X axis, the Z axis (up down) is adjusted by the focus.
The picture on the screen is the same stone as before, just recut the facets to make it a bit more complex. Still only using the screen to get the meet points, it is at the 1200 grit stage.
(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-060421192703.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9529)(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-060421192818.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9530)
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I've purchased a camera, plan on mounting it on a horizontal carriage with linear bearings above my machine. Camera comes with height adjustment screw thread that I might use. If it's no good for cutting I still be able to take video of stones on the dop. I think it will do 1080p at 60fps. If the lens doesn't suit there are a huge range of lens available to fit it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001260076533.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.67174c4dTbppIB (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001260076533.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.67174c4dTbppIB)
MB
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Looked at those scopes, look better quality but to bulky. Won’t be able to get the scope close enough to the stone without colliding with parts of my machine.
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I figure I should be able to get it up above everything as the working distance is a lot more than the microscope you are using. If the current lens doesn't give me enough working distance there are lots of others available. I'm thinking I'll have a good part of 10cm between the lens and stone.
MB
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Got it polished with 60k diamond, the stone was a 11mm dia. cubic zirconia. (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-090421180742.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9531)
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Hi Frank,
It is looking good. I was going to make a CNC based surface grinder for my laps. But having seen your Renault’s I now think I’ll be setting up a scope before I do that
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Looks good Frank. Speed wise how is it comparing to using a loupe ?
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At the moment it’s taking nearly twice as long because of the fine adjustments I’ve yet to build into it and the light. The angle of the light hitting the facet as you know is key to picking out any scratches. You would normally rotate the stone around under the light till that happened, you can’t do that because the stone has to stay under the scope and the built-in light shines straight at it. You can un index it and rotate it a small amount and I’m finding at the polishing stage I have to do that on every facet.
My current lamp is not flexible enough, so, I’m buying a desk lamp with a flexible stem the same as the mobile phone stand, I bought. The plan being to set the lamp up to suit that row of facets.
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Finished the last of the stones I’m entering in the AFG comp, which was the crown of the Happy birthday concave. So back to work on my scope stand. Got the fine adjustments for the scope designed so will get started on that tomorrow and fit it to the end of the boom. That’s going to speed things up a lot.
Also realised I can mark a “home position” on the mast in pencil for each row of facets and when the stone is finished rub them out. That’s going to make it quicker when I change laps, also if I want to change the angle of the scope to look at the girdle meet points for example and then go back to those facets.
Sticking to the wooden mast and boom, though will make a more professional looking setup, rather than something a 12 year knocked up in school woodwork class. I like the large surface area between the two surfaces that require minimal pressure to keep them in place.
Apart from the speed (which I can do a lot to improve on) I really like it.
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LOL, my comments are in your gallery. Again...DANG!
Unbelievable! I haven't seen you around for years, good to see you are still into it.
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This is the latest on my scope setup.
Made a new mast from 12mm plywood 500mm high, needed the slot to go that high. Kept the same dressed timber boom, but extended the slot. The small piece of wood under the boom is a guide to maintaining the boom angle.
The boom angle is relevant to the facet angle and to get that I put my magnetic based digital protractor on the boom and roughly set it up. Because the protractor is heavy it has to come off and the small piece of wood is set at that angle. Then I can setup the boom accurately knowing I still have the correct angle.
Made a more robust base out of aluminium for the mast, made the fine adjustment setup at the end of the boom out of an old 7mm thick chopping board. Have a mill/drill so could mill all the parts so they were accurate.
Having it made out of light weight material makes it a lot easier to move it into position while just looking at the screen.
The white labels I’ve stuck on it let me mark homing positions for the facets and they will come off when the stone is finished.
Still using whatever I find laying around to make it.(https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/gallery/9/medium_120565-010521195333.jpeg) (https://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9555)
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Watching your progress with interest Frank. You are giving me ideas to make mine work. :)
MB